Valeria on folk heroes: part 2

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Vic: Do you think that language barriers contribute to people’s decisions?

Valeria: Yes, because you know, Russian propaganda works really well, and they think that- well, there are indeed some people like this. But in truth, most of Ukrainian speaking people will not force- will not have tried to force a Russian speaking person from occupied territories to speak Ukrainian. No. Most of us will be understanding because, how can you, how can you learn Ukrainian when you were under Russian repressions every day? It’s impossible. So, of course, we give people time. But, but the thing is, with that, when we give them just a little precedent and Russians spin it out of control, of course, they can talk about how “oh Ukrainians will be killing you if you, if you don’t speak Ukrainian”, you know that’s, that’s the thing.

So I guess those people can even think that they will be not just- that it will not just be financially hard to get back to Ukraine, that they will be unwelcomed. That they will be treated as traitors, you know, as separatists. So that’s why. There are a lot of reasons, sadly, why people would not decide to go to Ukraine from occupied territories. And Russian propaganda is a large reason. Large, large reason. Unfortunately it is the strongest propaganda machine in the world. For God’s sake.

Vic: And they’re primarily targeting Russian speakers?

Valeria: Yes, of course. Because, well, they do have to connect. Because if a person wants to speak Ukrainian, I mean, that means that they are not open to Russian narratives. But if they, if they speak Russian, and they are comfortable speaking Russian, then they can press an issue that is hurting, well, that is hurting for us. For a lot of Ukrainian and Russian speakers and stuff. They can use it against us to even worsen the issue, to even further the divide that is put between us. I really am sure that if it weren’t for Russians, this so-called divide wouldn’t be that bad, at all. Because in truth, we are not as different as they make it seem. Maybe, at the first glance we are, but not deep down.

Vic: With the Russian propaganda that you’ve seen, did they ever try and counter like, the hero imagery from Ukraine, things like, do they counter the Ghost of Kyiv? Do they try and counter stories of бабусі [grandmothers] resisting?

Valeria: I don’t think so, I don’t think I ever saw things like that. And the thing, well, funniest thing, is that, well- at first we were still not fully out of Russian info space, so we were kind of seeing that, and they did not- I don’t think they had stories like us, like this. Well, I think their stories were way more generalistic in a way that- they were more investing in that narrative that Russian army is the strongest in the world, and that they will conquer everything that they want to, and stuff. And they have those narratives that Ukrainians have NATO labs in their in their country, and that we are all just want to kill Russians, and that we are conspiring with NATO to attack Russia, that’s it. So that were their narratives. And in a way, they were more powerful to ignite hate, but ours were more powerful to ignite hope. You know, to lift our spirit, to fight back. Meanwhile, their stories were lived in their spirit to fight. That’s the difference.

Vic: Who do you normally talk about these stories with?

Valeria: Well my friends of course! I usually, I never talk to my parents about them, because they’re not just interested, because they’re busy doing their adult stuff, trying to survive with two kids on their hands. With no property and stuff.

[..]

Vic: Can you tell me about Pes Patron?

Valeria: How do you even start about this? I think it’s the biggest phenomenon yet, and it’s the most long lasting, because we still talk about Pes Patron. We do. Unlike the other ones. And I think a lot of what helps is that it’s a real dog that really is helping.

Well, to start off, it’s a Jack Russell dog that is working as a… mine searching dog? I just don’t know the words for it, like the job where you search for, for bombs, and you deactivate them before they can blow up, or you blow them up in a controlled environment. So the thing with him is that he’s very, very small. He’s a very small dog, so when he steps onto the mines, he doesn’t activate them. So that’s why. And I don’t even know how he became my meme. I have no idea how it all started. It was just very funny, and we were making songs about them and making memes and making funny pictures and stuff. And he’s just so funny, and he’s so innocent with his little tongue out. Little dog. A little dog with big ambition and big, big results. You know, that he was helping to deactivate the bombs. Such a funny baby, and he’s called Patron [note: Ukrainian word for “bullet”]. And to say Pes Patron is actually very satisfying. I don’t know if you noticed, but it’s actually so satisfying. And I dunno, people just love him. He’s an adorable little creature that helps us to fight Russians.

So, funny thing is that, well, he kind of too became a merch thing, like there are t-shirts with him and cups and caps, and… everyone knows him. But a funny thing is that a few days ago, I actually got to know a woman, and she didn’t know about Pes Patron, and she was Ukrainian. And when I heard about that, I screamed, because I genuinely thought she was messing with me. Because how can a Ukrainian not ever hear about Pes Patron? I was, I was baffled. I was flabbergasted. I was dumbfounded. Why? How did that happen? How did we, as Ukrainians, let that happen? Everyone has to know about Pes Patron right now. We have to spread the propaganda. So I ask her, “how do you even not know about Pes Patron?” Because he’s everywhere, absolutely everywhere. She was like, “Well, I was out of Ukraine for a very long while, and I only returned a few months ago,” but I just, I don’t know. It’s really hard to comprehend for me. How can anyone not know Pes Patron when they’re from Ukraine? Really, really cute dog. Everyone should know about him.

Vic: Can you remember roughly when Pes Patron became-

Valeria: Oh, at the very first start! The very first start of the full-scale invasion. I just don’t remember what exactly started it. Maybe those videos when he worked because, you know, it’s a very tiny dog. He’s so funny. And he was like, having all those photos with the soldiers and people of power, like the president, maybe.

Vic: Yeah, I think he met Zelensky.

Valeria: Yeah, of course he did! It’s just that- I don’t know if it happened at the very first start of full-scale invasion. But yeah, it was pretty quick, and it was so long lasting, because even now we still joke about him. Like my friend, she says that her dog is the lover of Pes Patron, like the second wife, because it’s a very- it’s a small dog too. Yeah, I just love this guy.

Vic: Can you tell me about the Pes Patron songs?

Valeria: Oh, I can sing them! Well, you know, as it tends to happen with a lot of memes, especially the big ones, people create songs, and, as I said, merch. So there was this funny song, like <sings>. It sounds really good, you know, and people made a ton of remixes with it. Like, I remember someone making even a phonk remix of Pes Patron, and that was on my boat, definitely. I genuinely listened to it a few times. It was great.

Vic: Nice. And you played the songs to this lady who-

Valeria: Yes, I did. She was busy. She was quite busy. She wasn’t able to listen to it. But the song is great. I still enjoyed it while it was playing. So.

Vic: Do you own anything with Pes Patron on it?

Valeria: I wish. Maybe I owned, yeah, I think I owned stickers. But not anymore, because, you know, especially Ukrainian made stuff or some sort of merch is really expensive, especially for me as student. As a IDP [Internally Displaced Person] student. But I think you- if I wanted to, I could, like, made the posters of it. Just print it on a photo paper and stuff. Maybe I should do that actually. Yeah. But anything with Pes Patron is actually a very great gift. I remember, yeah, once I bought those wet wipes with Pes Patron on them, and it was a great gift for my then girlfriend. She really likes it, I promise you! <laughs>

Vic: Have Jack Russell’s become more popular?

Valeria: Yeah, definitely. Like, I don’t think I ever saw them before, or maybe I just didn’t notice them before the full-scale invasion. But I think I saw like big dogs way more. And now, I actually see a Jack Rustle at least once a month. Like in real life, when someone is walking them and stuff. And every time that I see them, I’m like, “Pes Patron!”, because they all just look the same <laughs>. I promise you, it’s funny. And I love to see them. They’re so funny little dogs, walking so funny.

Vic: Do you think anyone names their dog Patron?

Valeria: I would. I would. Maybe not a dog, but a cat. Definitely.

Vic: Kit [Ukrainian for cat] Patron?

Valeria: Kit Patron, yeah. Like Pessa Kit Patron [Miss Cat Patron].

Vic: Do you ever see paintings of these figures around Lviv? Because in Kyiv, there’s the Ghost of Kyiv mural.

Valeria: I don’t think so. Actually, in Lviv, I don’t think I saw that many murals. It’s funny, because even in Avdiivka, it was a very small town, but we had a bunch of murals. Like, we had a mural that is dedicated to my Ukrainian teacher <laughs>. Yeah, it’s funny. Well, it was, it was called “A mural of Ukrainian teacher”, and she was my Ukrainian teacher, like a teacher of Ukrainian language. And it’s funny because she was a cool woman. Well, I hope she is <laughs> I hope she’s fine. But I just didn’t see her for a very long time. And then we had this mural of Kozak Mamae that was playing this instrument. What was it called? Can’t remember. But I think it was something like our traditional instruments. It was very beautiful. And then we had those murals of little boy and a little girl, two separate murals, watering the flowers. And then this beautiful mural of a woman whose hair turned into waves. Like we had a bunch, but they all appeared, like a few years before the full-scale invasion, maybe in 2020, and 2021. And I actually made Pokéstops [checkpoints in the mobile game Pokémon Go] out of these <laughs>.

But, yeah, it’s funny, because Avdiivka was only like 30 kilometres square. That’s it. Lviv is so huge, but it has not that much murals, unfortunately <laughs>. They are all just spread out, you know. But I wish we had more. Don’t think I ever saw a mural dedicated to such people, as we talked about.

Vic: Maybe you could get permission to do a Pes Patron one.

Valeria: Oh, that would be great. But it would be a very hard work, as far as I know. This is very hard. I only do art like amateurly, not a professional. This should be a job of professional. But maybe one day I can! Maybe it should become a goal of my life to make a mural of Pes Patron. I would love to commemorate him, the memory.

Vic: That’d be a pretty good-

Valeria: Yes.

Vic: Have there been any other dogs in the military that have become famous?

Valeria: I don’t think so. Well, there’s plenty of dogs that do the same job as Pes Patron, or even like rescuing people and stuff, and they all deserve to be loved and praised by their accomplishments, but I’m not sure. I don’t think there is another dog as famous as Pes Patron, or even nearly as famous. Because, I don’t know. He just became a cultural phenomenon. He’s one of a kind.

Vic: Yeah.

Valeria: Don’t think there are any famous dogs other than him.

Vic: Did you ever hear the story of the stork that had its nest outside someone’s house and then-

Valeria: Of who?

Vic: Like, the leleka [Ukrainian word for stork]?

Valeria: Oh, oh, no, maybe- maybe about those two storks that made a nest? And everyone were watching them in real time?

Vic: Oh, yeah, I actually met the guy who runs that stream.

Valeria: Really? <laughs>

Vic: Yeah, he speaks English, he’s in Kyiv.

Valeria: But I just- it all went past me. For some reason. I just remember that they had funny names, and maybe they had kids, that’s it. I never watched them. I never talked about them.

Vic: I saw a story of, I don’t remember where it was, but a village where nearly every house was destroyed, but the one that had lelekas nesting outside didn’t get destroyed. And I was told that they’re good luck to have them nesting.

Valeria: Well, lelekas are kind of Ukrainian symbol, you know.

Vic: Yeah.

Valeria: So it is a symbol of good luck for us.

Vic: Do, I guess, do animals get discussed a lot during the full-scale invasion?

Valeria: Yes, but not, not in a good context. The main talking topics were the- how do you even call them? The places, where there were places- there were places that, especially in Kherson region, like Zaporizhzhia, in Mykolaiv region, where we kept rare animals. And we were guarding them, you know? And well, because of Russians, a lot of those animals died. And we, we tried to rescue as much animals as we could. Well, not me, but you get what I’m saying, Ukrainians. And unfortunately those animals, they suffered through a lot of things. It’s a very sad topic. It’s not something that would motivate in any way, because it’s just the horrors of Russian occupation that they destroy everything, in the way that they work. Even animals, even just innocent animals that we are trying to guard.

Vic: Yeah, yeah. Preservation is how we’d call it. Yeah. I think lions from Kharkiv Zoo ended up in England.

Valeria: Oh yeah, I remember there was a also a scandal that Mr. Beast, this famous Youtuber, was trying to rescue, well- he was rescuing some lions from Ukraine. And, you know, he does this, those translations on a lot of other languages, and in the Russian translation, instead of saying that “we flew to Ukraine to rescue some lions that saw the horrors of war”, they said that “we flew across the world to rescue lions that live in horrible conditions”. Something like that, I’m telling you. And people were really angry at Mr. Beast, but in truth, he had no relations to it. Yes, it was done under his name, but there was a whole team doing those translations, and in this team, there were Russians, so that’s why they censored it so much.

Vic: Did it ever get fixed? Or is it still like that?

Valeria: I’m not sure. I only heard about it when it was ongoing, so maybe I could look it up.

Vic: Is he popular here?

Valeria: In Ukraine? I don’t think so. Well, I only, I’m only interested in him when I watch some sort of scandals with people, I don’t know, just some sort of entertainment. But his regular videos, they’re not for me at all. And I don’t know anyone who would be interested in such sort of content.

Vic: Yeah, the, the expression he has in the thumbnails weirds me out.

Valeria: It’s really, it’s really creepy, right?

Vic: Yeah.

Valeria: It’s unnatural, yeah.

Vic: It’s not my sort of video.

Valeria: Well, he’s trying to appeal for kids, and kids really love those expressions, over saturated ones.

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